The Reinventor's Mindset - Episode 1
Ashton Jones in conversation with Rob Samuels Managing Director, Maker's Mark Distillery
 

Ashton: Good morning, Rob. How are you doing today?

Rob: I'm going well, Ashton. Thank you so much for having me.

Ashton: Welcome to the Reinventor's Mindset, insights about transformation with leaders who've done it from the inside. I'm Ashton Jones and I'm writing Bold Water, a book about transformation. Today I'm speaking with Rob Samuels, eighth generation at Maker's Mark Distillery, a family business that's been making bourbon for over 70 years and is now pioneering regenerative farming while still hand-dipping over 29 million bottles a year.

Rob and I first met at the INSEAD Advanced Management Program late last year, and amongst many things he taught me how to make a mean bourbon-forward cocktail. Welcome, Rob. Let's dive in.

Rob: Thank you, Ashton. Excited to be with you. Nice to see you again.

Ashton: Rob, just to start today, I was really keen to hear in your own words a little bit about the history of Maker's Mark, its connection to Kentucky and its connection with your family, because it's a really amazing story.

Rob: Thank you. My name is Rob Samuels. I am the eighth generation of the Samuels family involved with producing whiskey here in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. We think our family has actually produced whiskey longer than any family in the world.

It was my grandparents, Bill Samuels Sr. and Margie Samuels, who in the early 1950s shared a collective vision that in many ways would reimagine what bourbon could be. Prior to the 1950s, American whiskey and the bourbon category had its rightful place down on the bottom shelf, a test of manhood, aggressive, commoditised whiskey. We know that to be true because our family made pretty mediocre whiskey for the better part of 160 years prior to Maker's Mark. And thankfully, my grandparents had the courage to walk away from that legacy.

They did so because they didn't believe in it. They saw it for what it was and they wanted to go out on their own and create something that they believed in and could be really proud of. Their vision was less of a commercial ambition. My grandfather was a craftsman obsessed over a flavour vision: to bring together refinement through a handmade, inefficient process, rich, creamy, balanced, full-flavoured.

And my grandmother Margie complimented his vision in some really important and beautiful ways. She would go on to create the name and design the bottle. She wanted to celebrate his vision for a handmade bourbon through making his mark, like the classic handmade English pewter craftsmen and women who would always make a mark as a sign of handmade pieces, the mark of the maker. She was adamant that every bottle would be hand-dipped, with the wax running down the neck of the bottle as a celebration of individuality, and that every label would be hand-printed and hand-cut.

They started in the early 1950s. They operated the distillery for the better part of seven years before the first barrels were matured. Looking back today, they are recognised as being the first craft distillery in America.

I could show you the P&L where they didn't turn a profit for the better part of 25 years. My grandfather would talk about how proud he was that even when they didn't have customers, they never wavered from their vision. It's so much easier to stay true to who you are when you have customers, and they didn't have customers. Kentuckians kept us in business for almost three decades.

There was a pivotal moment of discovery in 1981. We think it was the first time that the Wall Street Journal centre column front page featured a story on a privately held company. The Wall Street Journal, and I actually have my grandfather's copy here in my office, tells the story of this quirky little distillery in Marion County, Kentucky, that goes against the grain to make its mark. It was the Wall Street Journal who said that bourbon distiller Bill Samuels Sr. and Maker's Mark are a model of purposeful inefficiency.

So irrespective of cost, you had a craftsman and his wife with this overriding commitment to quality and handmade, with a flavour vision. It's so ironic that while they didn't have a commercial ambition in the beginning, they're credited in many ways with transforming the trajectory of the entire industry.

A few years ago, Food and Wine Magazine brought together about 30 of the most respected American whiskey leaders and asked them to rank the most influential bourbons ever made. All but two said that Maker's Mark is the most important bourbon that's ever been made. And we carry it forward.

Ashton: What a legacy. You've literally made your mark in the industry.

Rob: I think that's an important point, because I've been in my role as Managing Director of Maker's Mark for 15 years. We've done, in many ways, what I don't think has ever been done anywhere in our industry that I'm aware of, which is, how do you globalise a brand? How do you manage growth and retain your authenticity?

So often in manufacturing, when manufacturers finally experience a little bit of growth, they almost always scale up to get more efficient, how do you make more to reduce your cost base? We didn't do that. But it's truly the founder's vision, how do you take a classic brand, an iconic brand, a national brand, and think through who you are but evolve into the future? That is very, very hard to do.

Ashton: Reinvent yourself constantly. Listening to you speak, Rob, and I felt this when we were on the course together, you speak with such poetry and passion about this business and the product you produce. It's 8.20am here in Sydney and hearing you talk about the creamy bourbon makes me want to go and get a glass.

Rob: Aussies love our bourbon.

Ashton: Yeah, we're one of your biggest markets I believe. And you know, I wanted to learn a little bit more about your family. They really do seem to be a family of multi-generational innovators, from your grandmother Margie, who I understand pioneered experiential tourism, all the way through to your truffle dog Star, that you told me about on the course. It feels like there are some values and qualities that really run through the veins of your family. If you look back on your childhood, how did you learn those qualities, or where did they come from?

Rob: I appreciate you recognising my grandmother Margie, because the industry 70 years ago was very much a male-dominated industry. My grandfather encouraged her, she was his partner, she was a shareholder and she was instrumental in creating the design ethos for the entire brand. She created the name, designed the bottle, was adamant that every bottle would be hand-dipped and hand-cut, that it would be a celebration of the value system and the vision for the handmade bourbon. She designed the entire distillery to be personal. Manufacturing sites are always optimised for efficiency and she said we're going to balance function and form.

They didn't like traditional marketing, they were almost offended by conventional marketing. They didn't talk about it as flipping the marketing funnel, but that's really what they did, because they were more comfortable talking to a few people who would then recommend, versus screaming the loudest to connect with many and only maybe having a few consider.

What's really exciting and energising for the future is that our ambition still remains our founders' vision. A lot of people, when they hear me talk about continuing the founders' vision, sometimes roll their eyes, like it's looking in the rearview mirror, which it's not. We celebrate the legacy of the past and no one is more proud of the family legacy. But what the founder's vision provides is clarity for the future. It's the North Star. When we think about everything that matters most, it's pushing forward with that same North Star, from the culture and our team, to the quality of the whiskey, to the unwavering commitment to quality.

It's innovating with purpose. It's awful easy to innovate in a lazy way. But how do we innovate in a way that's groundbreaking, pioneering and worthy of what our competitors have said is the most important bourbon brand that's ever been made? How do you build the brand through experience?

Everything we're doing at the distillery is layering in the gardens, the handmade culture, the arts. We have the second most extensive modern art collection. We're commissioning a chandelier by one of the most famous artists in the world, which we're going to hang in our limestone whiskey cellar. But most importantly, it's the people, treating your team really well, especially when you're under pressure. The engagement of our team is off the charts. The belief in what we do, why we do it, and the commitment to community.

Maker's Mark is the only public benefit corporation or B Corp distillery in all of North America, which is the highest standard of sustainability, treating people well and giving away some of your profit to community.

Ashton: I love the concept you mentioned of innovating with purpose. It almost flips the concept that often gets taught around innovation, which is that you've got to explore lots of different things and experiment. But if you really know your purpose, you can drive innovation towards that purpose.

Have you ever listened to Marcus Buckingham? Marcus Buckingham, Love and Work, I've heard it's one of the best.

Rob: It is one of the very best. And one of the most compelling business books that has benefited me tremendously, that I share with almost all of our team members, is Simon Sinek's book, The Infinite Game.

Ashton: Yes, I think we talked about this a little at dinner that first time.

Rob: It's operating with an infinite mindset. Most companies and most leaders at every level have this very short-term, finite way of thinking, winning and losing in the short term. The companies that are really built to stand the test of time are all led with an infinite mindset.

Of course you want to be successful and compete. But it's really about, what are all the things you have to do to stay in the game for the long term? For us, if you want to be in business 100 years from now, when you're under pressure: don't compromise your quality, don't do anything that would damage the trust and culture of the team, and only innovate with things that are purposeful, because if you do lazy innovation, it actually hurts your brand.

And I believe that companies should have a much bigger role in leading the way with higher purpose and sustainability. With regenerative agriculture, if we're going to move away from conventional farming, which is so detrimental to water systems and the environment, what I see is that on average there are only 50 harvests left before the topsoil is completely depleted.

And regenerating the soil leads to more flavour, more nutrient density. Through regeneration, you can sequester carbon in the soil, so it's so much better for the environment.

Maker's Mark today is the only distillery in the world where all of our fresh distillate is produced utilising only certified regeneratively grown agricultural ingredients. We have 11 growers that grow all of our corn and wheat across 50,000 acres. Our agricultural footprint is massive. And over the last 10 or 11 years, we've provided all the resources, education, inspiration and access to the foremost regenerative farming leaders in the world to mentor our 11 growers away from conventional farming, which is heavy-tilling, destroys the topsoil, monoculture, relying upon chemical inputs, towards regenerating the life in the soil, which we think delivers half the flavour.

Ashton: That's a really powerful concept. And I understand you've found some allies along that journey, like Matt Moran here in Australia.

Rob: The week I was in Australia and got to spend 48 hours with Matt Moran was one of the most energising couple of days in my nearly 28 years in the industry. Not only is Matt's culinary vision so well-documented, but his belief in stewardship of nature in pursuit of flavour is just inspiring. I got to spend a full day with Chef Matt Moran at his family farm, and then we spent time together at his restaurant. It's an honour to partner with Matt Moran and to join hands to advance regenerative agriculture.

Sustainability isn't its own thing, it's through stewardship of nature that we ultimately achieve more flavour. And it was a great honour in the spring, one of the reasons I was in Australia in 2025, to launch our first-ever new-to-the-world brand called Star Hill Farm.

Maker's Mark Distillery today is a national historic landmark. It sits on a nearly 2,000-acre working farm called Star Hill Farm. Eleven years ago, as we started thinking differently about whiskey and stewardship of nature and flavour, trying to understand where flavour comes from, how farming practice has changed, what role soil health plays in flavour, this new-to-the-world Star Hill Farm Whiskey was born. It's a wheat whiskey that celebrates and honours nature as the maker. It's an award-winning whiskey and I'm super proud of the complexity and flavour profile. But even more so, I'm proud that we're donating 100% of the profit from Star Hill Farm Whiskey to advance regenerative farming all over the world.

We have a three-year ambition to adopt one million acres of farming land around the world, beyond our own direct agricultural footprint, to provide education to growers. Connecting the growers and the restaurants with a supply chain to bring the stories to guests at the restaurant and the bar, about why regenerative agriculture has to be the future.

One of the great films on this subject, I think it's on Amazon now, is Kiss the Ground. Anyone interested in regenerative agriculture and its benefits will find it lays out a really compelling case that the only real way to combat global warming is through regenerative agriculture and sequestering carbon in the soil.

Gabe Brown is the farmer and cattle rancher from North Dakota prominently featured in the film. Gabe started an organisation called Understanding Agriculture. His mission is to partner with growers to share what he's learned over 30 years, having been a conventional farmer, to the detriment of his own farm.

He has embraced regenerative agriculture and is way ahead of the curve. Gabe comes to Kentucky three times a year to mentor our 11 growers. We're making Gabe and his team available to hundreds of farmers all over the world to educate and inspire, and we're funding the regenerative certification which certifies soil health on a grading system to track progress on the regenerative farming journey.

Ashton: That phrase, nature is the maker, Rob. I hope there's an educational campaign in that somewhere, because I think that's a great way to sum up the whole concept.

Rob: It's a different way of thinking about whiskey. It's manufactured, but you have to start with the best ingredients. And it's through the gift of nature that you start with the best ingredients. If Maker's Mark can do it, and today we're a national brand, so can others.

Through the profile of Maker's Mark and our journey and our certifications, it has prompted other companies of scale, both inside and outside our industry, to look at and start examining their own practices and create a movement.

Ashton: You mentioned the infinite mindset and the long-term view. It made me think about the time I worked for a company, TAL, that was going through an ownership transition, we'd been bought by Dai-ichi Life, a very large global insurance company. I was used to quarterly earnings cycles, and the first time I ever met with Dai-ichi they said they wanted to see a 100-year business plan.

I'm curious how you navigated the transition of Maker's Mark to a new ownership structure with Suntory. That couldn't have been an easy decision to make.

Rob: Philosophically, I think if you were to connect with the family members, Suntory is a family-owned business involved in many different industries and businesses, they have energy drinks in Australia and many other ventures. But their heart is in whiskey.

The family started with a Japanese wine, and out of curiosity a family member became obsessed over learning Scotch and how to make a Japanese whiskey that was rich and balanced. The family would go on to create the first-ever Japanese whiskey distillery. They pioneered brewing. So on the surface, it would be easy to think the cultures of Japan and Kentucky are quite different, language barriers and so on. But what's really meaningful to me is that philosophically, we view the world from the same side of the moon.

Every time I've talked to the family about what they're proudest of, they're proud of pioneering Japanese whiskey, but they're also proud of investing in culture, the arts and the community in Japan. They're building hospitals in Japan. They prefer to do things with an infinite mindset. They prefer not to take shortcuts. We've been with Suntory now for about 11 years.

There are some bumps in the road with the corporate people who run the spirits group, but philosophically I feel like we have a lot of alignment with the family.

Ashton: That commonality of purpose really carries you for the long term.

Rob: I think of it as the soft side of the business. What are the things at Maker's Mark that underpin the strength, the success, what consumers love, and that doesn't show up overtly when you look through an Excel spreadsheet and the P&L. It's all of those things that we've been very intentional and focused on that really differentiate the brand.

Ashton: And I think having that long-term mindset allows you to really reframe how you measure the success of your organisation and your career. I think about a story they told me when I first went to the Dai-ichi office. They had a decision to make in the wake of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, whereby Dai-ichi wanted to ensure they could find any policyholders and pay them claims. They made a decision to pay claims to people even if they didn't have the original policy documentation. All they needed to produce was a piece of Dai-ichi merchandise, because back in those days when they sold life insurance they would go around, knock on people's doors, sell the policy, and leave behind a piece of merchandise. Those sorts of examples, really thinking long-term about how you give back to the community, how you look after people, how you look beyond the bottom line, I can really see that commonality between Suntory and Maker's Mark.

Rob: I think there's more to it, not only do companies that operate with an infinite mindset have a much longer life cycle, three or four times longer, but they actually end up winning more in the short term as well. Companies that have a higher purpose have more engaged team members, more engaged customers. I know I do, I buy brands that I believe in, where I have shared values.

Patagonia was a huge inspiration for me. We built a nice relationship with the folks at Patagonia, because what they proved is that a brand of global scale can obsess over product quality, be pioneering innovators, and have at the centre a mission and a higher purpose.

Ashton: The Australian equivalent of that would be R.M. Williams I think, which maybe you've got a pair of now?

Rob: I wear my R.M. Williams with great pride here in Kentucky.

Ashton: I'm going to take you back a little bit to what I understand is your first and maybe your best customer of Maker's Mark. You made a cocktail for me when we were at INSEAD called the Keeneland Breeze. Can you tell me the story behind that cocktail?

Rob: I would love to. And I hope if you're able to make a trip to America, I'd encourage you to visit in either April or October. Kentucky's culture is so rich and distinctive. It's shaped by this culmination of the whiskey, the food, the music, bluegrass music, which was born out of Kentucky and spawned, in many ways, country music in America, and horse racing.

In my opinion, the preeminent thoroughbred racetrack, not just in Kentucky but in America, is Keeneland Racetrack. It's a really inspiring story. It was in the depths of the Depression that the visionary racing leaders in central Kentucky had the idea not just to found a racetrack, but to create the very best of all racetracks, one that would be in service to the horse. It was never founded as a nonprofit, but it was operated with everything in service to the racing and to the community.

In 1959, Keeneland Racetrack purchased the first six cases of Maker's Mark that were ever sold. Keeneland was our first customer. And even to this day, Keeneland is our largest single-location customer in the world, and they're only open six weeks a year, three weeks in April and three weeks in October. But if you were to fall from the sky in April or October at Keeneland, you would think horse racing is the most vibrant, culturally-connected sport in the world.

What I'm proudest of is that we've raised millions and millions of dollars together with Keeneland for causes in Kentucky. We're in the middle of about a $6 million fundraising effort, each spring we raise money and celebrate iconic thoroughbred racehorses through limited-release bottles, where we donate all the profit to the community.

Keeneland never had a signature cocktail until four or five years ago. The CEO of Keeneland said to me, "Rob, we've been thinking about creating our first-ever signature cocktail." Of course, they wanted it to be a bourbon cocktail, and they chose Maker's Mark because of our long-standing relationship.

The president of Keeneland said: "We want this cocktail to be one that a bourbon novice would appreciate, and also someone who loves a bourbon-forward cocktail." It's a heavy pour of Maker's Mark, ginger ale, orange curaçao, which is like a triple sec, and then an orange wedge.

Bill Thomas said: "Rob, do you think we'd sell a few of those?" I said, yeah, I think you might.

And they sell tens of thousands of them.

Ashton: I understand why. I thought it was one of the most refreshing cocktails I've had in a long time.

Rob: I'm advocating that your trip to America take place in the first three weeks of October. We will spend quality time at the distillery and Star Hill Farm, but spending a day with you at Keeneland will be a really special experience.

Ashton: That sounds like a deal. I'm hoping to finish Bold Water before October, so that might give me a good milestone. And in return, Rob, I'll need to get you along to the race that stops the nation in Australia, the Melbourne Cup. We need to find a way to introduce the Keeneland Breeze there, or maybe come up with a Melbourne Breeze.

Rob: Let's go for it.

Ashton: We're close to time, so maybe just to finish up, I'd love to ask you a final question. It's a little reflective, about legacy and about your own childhood. What childhood belief did you have to let go of to become who you are today?

Rob: What I'm proudest of at 51, reflecting over the holidays, is just how blessed and fortunate I am as a parent. I have two young adult children who I couldn't be more proud of. To see them prosper and find their passions and their interests is so fulfilling. I have this really nice sense of contentment and peace with just being a proud parent.

When I was coming out of university, it's a different question to ask: do you respect the family legacy, versus do you want to make it your life's work? And it was really important to me to get outside the shadows of Kentucky and Maker's Mark to find out, do I really love the industry?

All my cousins, everybody in the family, respects the legacy. But I proved to myself over 10 years working for a different company in the industry outside Kentucky that I was completely fulfilled doing my own thing. And I never wanted my father to feel like he had to hire his son. I always wanted to be invited back.

Finally, in 2006, I was invited back. And it's just an honour to work with such a capable group of people. When I think about our collective legacy, beyond the whiskey, doing things at a high level with excellence, let's do fewer things, but let's do things that will stand the test of time. Is it possible that this tiny little distillery in rural Kentucky can be on the forefront of making meaningful change around the world? That is very motivating for me, for our family and for the team.

Ashton: That's amazing. Thank you so much, Rob, for your time and for the opportunity to get to know you when we were in France. It's been a real pleasure to learn about your story and learn from you as a leader. And hopefully the next time we see each other, it's over a Keeneland Breeze in Kentucky.

Rob: We have to do it. It's an open invitation, Ashton. Great to visit with you again.

Ashton: Thank you so much. This has been the Reinventor's Mindset.

Rob: Thanks, Ashton. Speak soon.